hasvotsetyoufree

This message was posted on the Truth Message board post by 90% ex-2x2s. 11/10/2007

Nathan Barker, wrote me an email and asked if he could reprint my story. I tried to answer but got a error message. But my answer is YES. Yes, everybody. Please reprint this as much as you want. Scream it from the rooftops. We need to warn our friends with children that this kind of thing is real and a danger to our children's souls. These lies and deception are lasting poison. I can already see it will be hard for me to get some of this poison out of my head once I figure out who these two (Ross and his informant) are and leave this awful message board.

Hi everyone.

I'm new to this message board, I admit . I know most of you are ex-friends and ex-workers and this puts you and me on opposite sides. But I don't think this will matter very much to you when I tell you the awful assault against my family. You will agree that I have a right to be upset.

My name is Jerry and I'm married. We have 4 wonderful children. My wife and I professed when we were young. The 6 of us had a wonderful life together and couldn't have been happier . I'm using past tense because our lives are a mess now, thanks to someone who used to be in the kingdom but is now a bitter anonymous coward who is afraid to show his face and own up to the damage he's done.

It all started about a year ago when my oldest 16 year old daughter who I'll call C stopped taking part in meetings. Then she started being negative to the friends and workers and Truth. We asked her to hold her tongue due to her spirit was harming our family, especially her brothers and sister. She got worse though and about 4 months ago stopped coming to meetings at all. Then about 3 months ago I found out that when we went to meeting she was sneaking off to the Baptist Church.

Wait! It get's worse!

A month ago my wife and I decided to do some snooping. We believe in our children's privacy but things had gone out of control so we had to. We thought maybe some influence had come into her life that had begun this disaster. So we hired a computer guy to look at her computer hard drive and what he found was crushing!

Back when this whole mess started she got an email full of negative stuff against Truth (earthly creator, excommunication rumors, pedophile workers, and links to antiTruth websites). The man who sent it called himself Ross but was using an email address of William Byers. We didn't know who William Byers or Ross were so I took the email address and emailed him back and asked who he was. He said his name was Ross and I told him I didn't know a Ross and he admitted he didn't know me either. I asked him for his address and phone number but he wouldn't tell me. He is a real coward.

I asked Ross what his relationship with my daughter was and first he denied knowing her saying all his conversations were private and he couldn't discuss his contacts with me I told him that my daughter was a underage and threatened to go to the police. Then he said he wouldn't discuss anything else until I emailed him from her email address for proof I was her dad. I did that then he emailed me back at my email address and said the only things he discussed with my daughter was things about Truth. He said he didn't know she was a child and said he was sorry for that . Not for wrecking our peaceful family life but for emailing my child. He never gave a good reason for causing trouble. He just kept sending me the exact same answer that he was trying to educate people. When I reminded him that he had made a wreck of our lives, all he did was apologize

Wait! It get's even worse!

I asked Ross how he got her email address. He said he got it from someone but wouldn't tell me more because it would violate a confidence. I thought the special circumstances would make it so he could make exception and give me the name of his informant. I appealed to his humanity and good judgment (he doesn't have either) and asked him nicely to give me informants name but all he did was say he couldn't and said he was sorry that I was upset and used the privacy of his contacts as an excuse again.

This is such a disaster. My daughter was so kind and innocent and a little jewel until all this blew up in her face. I want my little girl back. She doesn't deserve this mess. It's torn her out of our family. She's like a stranger in our home. We hardly know her anymore. She's failing school. She might drop out. Her state of mind is fragile. She's been going to a psychologist who's half crazy for almost a year now who's telling me and my wife to let her be herself as if her spiritual safety shouldn't mean anything to us . Crazy! I don't know what to do. It's just so hopeless. So much is lost. So much innocence has been destroyed.

I'm so mad I'm seeing red. This faceless coward comes out of nowhere and assaults my daughter like this. Who does "Ross" (if that's even his real name) think he is? Why is my family any of his business? What right does he have to interfere with the way I'm raising my children? What is all this talk about confidence and privacy? What about the confidence and privacy of my family and my children? This informant is the lowest scum too, a real monster. Giving my daughters email address to total strangers so they can harass her - a child? A Child? A CHILD? What kind of low life does this? I ask you does this sound like someone who knows Jesus?

Let me tell you Ross if I ever find out who you are or who your informant is, I will personally pay you both a visit and you'll spend your next 2 months in the hospital if your lucky enough to survive. I swear it. Don't come between a parent and their child. People like you deserve to burn in hell for the undoable harm you cause. What you've done has no excuse. You deserve to rot and burn in hell you worthless cowardy garbage swine!

I talked to our worker and he said people like this who send Truth emails cause a lot of damage to families like ours. Ross probably does this to more families than mine . He needs to be stopped. Maybe some of you can convince him. Please! His email is williambyers320@yahoo.com

Please everyone if you have any information on who William Byers or "Ross" or his informant are please please send me a private message and tell me who they are .Thanks so very very very much.

Sincerely,

Jerry

~~~ From an ex-2x2 Roy:

Jerry, do a google search on the Baptist Church she went to. You will find a load of information about their beliefs. Attend some of their meetings. You may be amazed at what you hear and what you see. Things just don't happen without a purpose. From your post, you sound like your "kingdom" has invaded and overthrown. I'm sure Goliath felt the same way. Yes, this things come as a real shock. Yes, one can place the blame on "______". Truth will stand on it's own. If Truth isn't standing on it's own, perhaps Truth isn't Truth.

~~~ From Jerry:

Good grief the godless rule this place! You push your agenda no matter who gets hurt or what families get destroyed. Maybe being away from what's right for so long has made everything seem ok except what's really right. Who cares. I'm not here to entertain you truth bashers . I just want to say that what Ross is doing is wrong. Him and his informant have "offended one of these little ones." I want to know who these guys are.

I will try to answer some of your questions now. Ross lied to C in that email. None of that stuff is proven its just repeated a lot. I know you all believe it but we all believe what we want to and your no different. Rumors aren't true just because they're popular. If I could go back and never give her her own computer I would do it. I don't have a time machine.

I've talked to C and she says she had no idea of "all the lies" as she put it until she got that toxic email. Her impressionable mind has been swamped with this rot-gut junk Ross is cramping down peoples throats.

I don't know what the laws are where you live but here kids are kids until their 18 so stop thinking that just because you disagree with me that you and everyone esle can treat my 16 year old like she's adult all the sudden.

Gosh. This is so depressing. I really pity some of you who buy into all this. If you hadn't taken my little girl with you pity is all I'd feel. But I can't help but be angry at people who spread this stuff like it's the truth. That's probably some of you too.

The guy (Roy) that said "Truth isn't Truth" yes that's an exact quote. Do you read what you write? Truth is truth and an apple is an apple. How can you be so out of touch with reality that you don't know that a word means what the word means?

I always thought conspiracy theories were harmless but now that one has turned my little girl into a wandering loser out on area 51 with a aluminum foil hat and paper shoes I've learned my lesson. So do any of you know Ross or his informant? Maybe one of them is a regular here?

~~~ From "Ross" to Jerry:

I'm disappointed that you feel it is necessary to make this matter public. I see no reason to put your family through more anguish by putting this here for all to see. I've apologized for my part in this repeatedly and there is nothing further I can do. If you wish to talk, please e-mail me and we can continue our discussion off-line via e-mail.

I've been here before but I'm by no means a regular here. I found this thread because someone e-mailed me about it. You posted my e-mail address. Remember? Again, please e-mail me and we can continue our discussion off-line.

Your friend, Ross

~~~~ "Informant" to Jerry:

Hey Jerry, can I have your attention for a moment? I am the "informant" for whom you seem to harbor so much hatred. Ross sent me an email pointing me to the mess you're making here. I think it's time you packed it up and went home. Your exposure level here is pretty high and you have a lot to lose by getting any mouthier. Think about your family. Think about C and what's best for her. Hasn't she been drug through enough mud?

You haven't been very honest here in telling your side of the story. You've left out some pretty important details. I don't think you want the whole truth coming out. It won't do anything for your image. Oh, and by the way, stop blaming Ross for C getting that email. C got that email because I gave Ross her email address knowing full well what he was going to do with it. He even asked me to make sure the recipient was an adult and I told him she was. (I think you know why.) Ross doesn't know much about the situation because I didn't tell him. Furthermore, stop blaming Ross, myself, and that email for the problems in your family. You know better.

Well, well, well. Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. You are a real piece of work. Shame on you. Yes it's me again, the man you loathe so much. Well you asked for it so I'm here to remind you of the rest of your story, including the parts you so conveniently left out.

Ross emailed C for the first time in the middle of June, 2007. By then, she had already given birth, and you and L had forced her to give up the baby for adoption. Equally horrifying is that the workers, people C looked up to, were instrumental in helping you and L in this awful act of parental betrayal.

Having lost her new-born against her will, C was desperate, fell into deep depression, and attempted suicide. While she was recovering, you and L missed no opportunity to let everyone know every sickening detail of her trauma. Jerry, the way you spoke of C while she was recovering was one of the saddest things I've witnessed in my life. You're her father. You should behave like it.

How C could have ever faced any of the friends and workers after everything you said about her is beyond my comprehension. It's no wonder that C told her Aunt R and Uncle G that she would rather go to hell than face those people again. It's amazing to me that to this day, you act shocked that C doesn't want to have anything to do with the people you and L know. I don't blame her. I wouldn't either.

Jerry, don't forget that everything I just mentioned happened !before! C got her first email from Ross. Well Jerry, what do you think of them apples? A few facts here and there sure do add perspective to your biased version of things.

Jerry, you and L won't admit it, but learning the truth about Truth has done C a lot of good. It gave her fresh perspective on her past, it gave her justification for the way she was feeling about her parents religion, and it gave her the freedom and confidence to leave a system behind that had done her so much harm.

It's so sad that the two of you, her own parents, can't see the good today in your own daughter. She's back in school and her grades have improved. She has a job and she enjoys working. She's going to the Baptist Church and has her own friends. And as if all this weren't enough, she's doing everything she can do and should do to get her baby back. Best of all though, Jerry, she is happy. In fact, I'm quite certain that the only thing wrong with her life is you and L.

Have I said enough? Should I keep going? Should I mention that the "half crazy" psychologist that C was seeing "for almost a year" was really four different psychologists and that you kept firing them because they were encouraging her to do what was right and what she wanted to do instead of what you and L wanted her to do?

Should I mention that you sent a letter to CPS, the court, and several of your relatives in your attempt to block her first attempt to get her baby back? (Jerry, I read the letter, and it was low, even for you. I still can't believe a father would write something like this about his own daughter.)

Should I mention that CPS and the court have finally gotten involved, taking away most of your power over C's situation? (Jerry, I can't help but think that this is the real reason for your outrage on this website. C's emancipation means you and L can no longer run her life for her. You've lost control. You want control but you can't have it. I think this is the real reason you are so upset.) I'll say it again. Pack it up and go home. Nothing good will come of you saying more.

All right Jerry. You are going to stop this now. I'm not asking you. I'm telling you. You are hurting your daughter. You obviously don't care though so I'm going to tighten it up a notch to get your attention. (It's up to me, it seems, to protect your daughter from you, which is really sad.)

If you post one more derogatory word about C or her situation, I will pull the skeletons out of your closet and put them on display for everyone in your life to see. I don't care what you otherwise say on this board and elsewhere but you will, at a minimum, pretend to love your daughter. Your hateful talk about your daughter stops now.

What skeletons? How about the one in your in-box. Check your email, Jerry. I know where you live. I know where you work. I know where you go to meetings. I have the mailing address of several of your relatives. I have the mailing address of all of the friends in your area. I have a hardcopy. I have a copy machine. Strike three out of you and I will put it everywhere, even here. (It's proven, true, public record, and legal).

So you don't think I'm bluffing, your wife signed for an envelope about an hour ago. I'll let you explain it to her. Good luck. By the way, Jerry, thanks for posting my email address here. It turned out to be quite helpful, especially in shutting you up.

Have a wonderful day!

Informant

~~~ Readers to informant:

Blackmail is punishable by law; issuing threats can also get people into serious trouble.

It is not a bright idea to make threats on a public forum, you run the risk of paying for your mouth, as it were. Stop the foolishness please, informant.

And now we are seeing what kind of person the 'informant' is. It seems both sides are in this for revenge, without looking at the "unintended consequences" of their actions. I know someone who is doing "life" because "all they wanted to do was scare" someone.

Jerry, Informant, Is 'winning' in this situation worth "life without parole?" Jerry, you've said you have other kids. How can you be a Dad to them right now when you are consumed by this? Informant, right now, today, what is Jerry doing that is so bad that you are going after him with dirt? If you are really tring to help C, she needs POSITIVE help. From reading these posts its starting to look like she has "jumped from the frying pan into the fire."

~~~ Harborlight to Jerry:

Jerry, I feel you have a right to be angry. I'm a Christian "ex", with grown children& stepchildren. No one should pursue contacting or sending any information to a minor without the consent of the parent. If this person truly didn't know your daughter was a minor, this is an unfortunate, damaging mistake. He should have asked her how old she was in the beginning.

I feel both of these people owe you, your family& your daughter a written apology for violating your right to your family's privacy. So does the person who passed the e-mail address to him.

Just a few points:

I am not a member of this church.

I would not protect an abusive worker.

I'm guessing you have never raised a teenager.

I'm happy that if this girl wants to take responsibility for herself, that she is now emancipated. Not all teenagers can safely and effectively parent an infant.

Also....you know what they say about the word "assume..."

I'm sorry I have offended you. May I ask....am I entitled to an opinion? Or just you?

I was a teen bride & parent at one time, who loved and kept my baby. I had a very supportive family. I can understand why this girl wants her baby back. We don't know the whole situation. I am trying to be kind and supportive to this whole family. I did not post on this thread to argue with you, so please quit attacking me. I think a 16- year- old is a child no matter what.

Thank you,

Harborlight

~~~~ BJ to Jerry, (Very good advices from Bj)

I'm sorry your family has been thrown into turmoil. Teens often have a way of doing that, no matter how loving their family & home is. Like it or not, the internet has opened a real Pandora's box for everyone trying to raise children in a responsible manner. There are "things" available at the click of a finger that years ago would never have been accessible to a minor. As parents we try our best to be vigilant. The best protection we can put into place is to keep the lines of communication open between our children and ourselves.

When we discover that our children have had access to material that we don't approve of, how we handle that knowledge can make a huge difference as to how our children process that. Now you've already stated that the information passed along to your daughter has completely changed her. Could part of her distress be a reaction to how you've reacted? She may not only be questioning her spiritual faith, but also now feels she's lost her family, as there is no way for her to discuss what she's been reading without you going ballistic on her.

I understand you feel violated, as someone sent the info to her unsolicited. That's a reasonable response I believe. However chances are, if she's at all a curious type, she would have one day discovered some of the info herself. I don't know where you live, but here in Canada workers have preached from the platform at convention to stay away from the "internet sites about our fellowship". Well .... that might as well have been a personal invitation, human nature being what it is. Any child in the meeting tent/shed hears that!

As a mother of two children in their twenties, what bothered me the most about your post was your lack of faith in God! Her spiritual safety remains where it always was - in His hands. Most of us question the basis of our faith at some point or another. Often we resolve it quickest when we're allowed to feel safe enough to dig, study, analyze and decide for ourselves. That way God can speak individually to us. Your sixteen year old must feel like she's brought doom and gloom on the entire family by the information she's read and how everyone is reacting. She must be so confused. Talk about pressure!!

Sit down WITH her. Spend a few minutes here and there studying the Bible together. (Not to show her that she's "wrong", but to show her what you DO have in common). Read Psalms and show her how David himself questioned God during his tough times, and how he discovered God's faithfulness time after time after time. Read Romans and rejoice together that God's grace is our hope. I truly believe that your reaction to her (spiritually) will make the difference in her attitude.

As someone here already said, teens often question all sorts of beliefs their parents hold. That's good! You already know that your faith won't save her. It needs to be a personal faith, and she needs to make that foundation based on her relationship with God. Encourage her to read her Bible and pray. Talk to her about the testimony you shared in meeting. Comment on your Bible study chapter. Ask her what she heard at the Baptist church! Keep it basic and completed focused on scripture alone. No nagging about going back to meetings, and no bashing of the Baptist church. Teens need to feel empowered to learn to make decisions in the safety of their home.

Is that psychologist really half crazy, or do you make that judgment based on their advice to let your daughter be herself? There does come a time when you have to have faith that you've raised your children in the best way you know how, and allow them to make their own decisions. The transition from child to adult isn't an instant one ... it happens slowly and sometimes us parents hold on for a tad too long.

My heart goes out to you. Have faith, trust God, and ALWAYS let your daughter know you love her, and only want the best for her. Don't let your disappointment in her leaving meetings be a wedge between you. Find ways to build bridges spiritually again. You'll me amazed at what a wonderful new relationship can develop. And I suspect that when the pressure of all this is taken off her shoulders, she'll calm down and find her footing again.

God Bless.

~~~~ Jerry to "Ross"

I see you found my letter so you are a regular here. I should've known. The way the people are here its no wonder this is one of your hangouts. No bread here!

I asked you to say who you are but you won't. Or your informant but you won't. I keep asking you to do the right thing but all you do is blab and blab about privacy and confidence of some slime ball who asked you to assault my daughter. You are the lowest form of life on earth. You don't care who you hurt you low life scum . The damage you caused can't be undone. I hope hell's furnace is working overtime for you. Your politeness and fake kindness mean nothing to me because I know what's underneath. You're a monster One of hell's demons. A wolf in sheeps lcothes I didn't accept your apology because its worthless. If you're really sorry, put your money where your mouth is and give me the name of your informant.

Ross, you're not my friend and we don't have anything else to talk about. Your like talking to a brick wall. I say something and you keep repeating word for word what you've already said a million times. What's it take to get that through your head. One of these days when you don't expect it you're gonna stick your head out from under a rock your hiding under and I'm gonna be there to take it off your smug little smile and all.

To the person who said I failed I did not fail. People like you interfered.To the person who said C's spritual safety is in God's hands. You're wrong. It was in his hands but people like you took her spriitual safety out of his hands. And I have sat down with her but she won't listen. She's not being rational. L can't get anything out of her either. C's been convinced by Ross and others that she can't talk to her own parents. You people should be ashamed.

What C did didn't take guts. It took being misled, lied to, decieved, led astray, and somewhere being taught to be a bit- to her whole family. I don't know why you insist on trying to talk me into converting to the Baptist Church. I'm not into paying for salvation, worshipping the almighty church building or filthy rich preacher and I'm sure not into one size fits all once saved always saved religions. Lay off.

I'm done debating. That's not why I came here. I came here for support which was a mistake but I also came here to find out who Ross and his informant are. I won't rest until I do. And let this be a warning to all you friends (if there's any misguided enough to be here) - keep your kids off the internet. If you don't, your family will suffer like mine at the hand of troublemakers spreading lies, rumors, and self-justifying hatred against God. My daughter might be a lost cause but it's not to late for your children. Act while there's still time.

Jerry.

~~~~~~~ Nathan B. to Jerry.

I have been posting on different message boards for 10 years and I found less than a handful of nice, reasonable, ex-2x2s. Most of the ex-2x2s think and believe they are doing God's will by trying to get MANY of the friends and workers to LEAVE the fellowship as soon as possible. Your daughter is one of their victims on the Internet.

The exes read the messages on different message boards, emailing lists on the Interent and they "Go after" the 2x2s doubters, unhappy ones within the fellowship, divorced and remarriaged folks by saying it is alright to remarry while your mates are still alive, those weak in faith or half-hearted in serving God, or the ones who are offended by the friends, the workers in the fellowship, and those who don't like having long hair, disliked wearing dresses, ladies like to wear make-up, jewerly, fashionable clothes, etc.. they befriend with these friends through emails by saying they understand their feelings so when these unhappy friends let their guards down, slowly the exes sent them information, anti-2x2s books to read, anti- 2x2 websites on the Internet for these victims to read.

Many of these ex-2x2s believe they have seen the light or been enlightened through the TTT an ex-2x2 website on the Internet. They believe the friends and workers who have chosen to stay and enjoy the fellowship are blind as bats, deceived, lied to, in the stage of denial the 2x2 ministry and a CULT fellowship started by a false prophet by the name William Irvine in 1897.

Most of these ex-2x2s have claimed they have been enlightened but many of them are NOT happy according to what they say and write on their own emailing lists, message boards, etc.... Many of them jump from one church to another too many times in searching for the right church which bring them peace, happiness, and a sound mind for their souls. Some of them got so fed up with religious Christian denomination, that they don't attend any churches out there, they just worship God on their own without having little fellowship with other Christians, some of them don't believe in God anymore. That's truly very sad for some who claimed their visions had been enlightened.

Those of us 2x2s who have decided to STAY and believe this is fellowship where God has led us were NOT born yesterday. We're NOT stupid, we can THINK for ourselves, making our own decision with the help from God every day. We're NOT blind, miserable, sad, unhappy people, deceived, as many of these ex-2x2 say we are.

In 1980 while I was living in Seattle, Washington (USA) we heard about the a group of ex-2x2s have been gathering information and passing anti-2x2s books in the Spokane, Washington area. Well, their work didn't cause too harm to the fellowship in those days.

In 1990, I read two books written by the exes: 1) The Secret Sect. 2) Has the Truth set you free? These two books exposed the human weakness some of the workers, and the friends which many of us already know it is true because we are humans.

When my fellow-worker and I labored in Oregon, USA 1992 we read a letter from a wife of a church elder's who had Sunday meetings in their home for more than 50 years but now they don't want the workers to stay in their homes anymore. Well, some ex-2x2s mailed their anti-2x2 information to them and it caused a lot of confusion, fear, doubts in their own minds. They believed the workers have lied to them, and this is a Cult which started by a man William Irvine, who claimed to be the First or founder after he had LEFT the ministy in 1914 and eventually the fellowship on his own free will.

The ex-2x2s began sending Mass! Mass! anti-2x2 information, books to many of the friends homes in USA. When the workers realized the confusion, chaos which the exes and their anti-2x2 books have caused they decided to have the friends' home addresses removed from the field lists. Many of these ex-2x2s were church elders, or back-up elders, ex-workers themselves so they had accessed to many of the field lists names and addresses of the friends in many states in America. Once the workers put only the friends names, and phone numbers but left out their homes addresses on the field lists the MASS! of the exes mailings tactic no longer effective and the workers warned the friends of the exes hidden agenda which is to get many of them to leave the fellowship and join the churches of their own choices.

I left the ministry in 1994 and in 1997 the ex-2x2s changed their MASSES of homes mailing tactic by posting most of their anti-2x2 information, books on the Internet. They had their own websites such as the VOT, TTT, and TLT on the Internet. They have ex-2x2 mailing lists, different message boards where they do their EVIL deeds trying to get many of the friends to leave the fellowship, and the workers to leave the ministry. These exes truly believe they are doing God's will by persuading many of the friends, and the workers reading their websites then eventually leave the 2x2s church and join different denomination churches out there for fellowship.

It was so SAD for me to see the chaos, confusion, and the destruction of many lives, families that these ex-2x2 have caused within the fellowship and the ministry around the world since 1990. I was moved by the Spirit iof God in the year 2000 to share my own research, studies, knowledge, expriences in the ministry, etc.. which I have gathered through the years on my 2x2 website, The Standing true list for mostly those in the fellowship, and our own message board with the help of different friends around the world to WARN others about the exes' hidden agenda and that's to get many of the friends to leave the fellowship and the workers to leave the ministry and do whatever they think is best for them.

~~~ John the apostle in 95 A.D. wrote to the whom he loved in the truth (III John 1:9-11) I wrote unto the church: but Diotrophes, who loveth to be the preeminence among them, receive us NOT. Wherefore, if I come I will remember his deeds which he is doing, gossipping against us, with malicious words, and not satisfied with that, neither he himself receive the brethren, and forbide them that would, and put them out of the church.

Beloved, follow NOT that which is EVIL, but that which is good. He that does good is of God: but he that does EVIL has NOT seen God.

~~~ Paul wrote in (I Timothy 4:1,2) Now the Spirit clearly say that in the latter times some shall Depart! from the Faith, giving heed to seducing spirit, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hyprocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron... (II Timothy 4:3,4) For the time will come when they will NOT endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they gathered themselves teachers say what their itiching ears want to hear. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

~~~ Jesus said in (Matthew 24:9-14;24) "... And then many be offended, and shall betrayed one another, and shall HATE one another. And many! false prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many! And because iniquity shall abound, the LOVE of many! shall wax cold. But he that endure unto the end shall be SAVED... And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in ALL the world for a Witness to ALL nations; and then shall end come.... And there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that IF it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

~~~~ In 1988 Jay W. and myself read an article in the North Bend, Oregon newspaper that one of the Church historian professors from the University of Oregon was given a lecture on the apostles and the Christians during 11th century. To our amazement! the professor was so excited about the man by the name of Peter Waldo, a French man in 1160 A.D. and his fellow workers as Itinerant preachers just like the early apostles of Jesus.

After the lecture we tried to visit with the professor but she had too many people waiting to chat with her so Jay sent her a letter expressing how much we appreciate what she had to share with us. In a kind way, Jay was informing her that there are people who are still going forth in the same kind of Itinerant ministry like Peter Waldo and the early apostles today. A few months later, Nancy one of the former sister workers who heard our story found out she worked in the same department and building approached the professor and told her she was in the similiar Itinerant ministry as Peter Waldo for 5 yrs. The professor was delighted to hear there are such men and women continuing the same kind of Itinerant ministry today.

We share with the friends, the workers about the interesting lecture which we heard approximately six months later one of the workers, Randy R. had a book: The Pilgrim Church written by E. H. Broadbent. I asked Randy if I could borrowed it to my amazement! Mr. Broadbent's had many interesting information about Peter Waldo's life and Itinerant ministry in his book. I have also found All kinds of interesting historical documents on different Internet sites to back up what that professor spoke was legit and truthful.

Sincerely,

Nathan B.

~~~~ Jerry to ALL:

I want to thank you who have been supportive to me and my family. I know I've been kind of angry at some of you and I want to say I'm sorry for that. Nothing has improved with C. In fact things look like they are getting worse. But it means a lot that some of you have been kind and supportive here . The rest of you who don't care about right and wrong but only about making yourself feel justified for leaving Truth, I hope God will have mercy on your soul. When I read the awful way you people behave on this website I am happier than ever to be in Truth. God really has hid things from the "wise and prudent". I will pray for each of you.

I think it's awful for you people to say that when a child has a baby that she magically turns into an adult and can do what she wants. For the sake of the baby adoption is the only humane thing to do. A 16 or 17 year old girl has no business trying to raise a kid. She obviously doesn't know right from wrong. She got pregnant that's proof. How is she going to teach a child right from wrong? She can't. There are lots of deserving parents out there who will do what's right. They can adopt the baby.

Another thing I don't think parents force their pregnant teens to give the baby up. They decide to have sex so they obviously can decide whether or not to keep the baby. We told C she could keep the baby or give it up for adoption. It was totally up to her.

Sincerely,

Jerry

~~~ Jerrry to Cherie Kropp the owner of the ex-2x2 website TTT=Telling The Truth :

I do not believe the mythology about William Irvine starting Truth. I asked a good friend of mine who happens to be an older worker and he said that William Irvine used to be a worker but isn't anymore and that is ALL. The stories you make up on your website, all those letters supposedly written by him, the photos of him, blah blah blah. It all means nothing because it's just a setup by bitter ex-friends to slander and dirty the Truth because they decided to leave. It's how they justify themselves. It all boils down to proof. There is none. I can write letters all day long and pretend their by someone else. I can take photos of anyone I want but that doesn't prove they started something. And all these newspaper accounts are easy to make up to. Just write a story about an old convention and say it comes from an old newspaper and there you go. I can't believe so many people believe all this crap. And someday, people like you who spread these lies are going to have to answer for what you've done. When I see all the people falling for this stuff it just makes me sick.

~~~ Cherie K. to Jerry: The purpose of my website is to present information for others to use however they see fit. You're entitled to your opinion. Many people have felt sick like you when they first read it. Sick that they were lied to...

It's not my intention to persuade anyone to believe one way or the other, but to present facts for readers to make critical evaluations and to be able to reason with all the known facts/details; and to give others the tools to do their own research and prove it for themselves.

Earlier, I found it very difficult to do my own research, as the information was scarce and hidden at that time (1988-1990). The Basic Researchers Guide (located on TTT) is a list of all known publications about the F&W group. With it, people can do their own research and get copies of the items for themselves. They don't have to take my word for anything, and I hope they don't. It's ever so much better prove these things for yourself as the Bereans did in Acts.

BTW, I have copies of all the original newspaper accounts which are found in typed format on TTT--many wre obtained by me from the Newspaper Library in London. PDF files take up so much more room on websites that I ran out of room on one server, and so I use the typed ones instead. I will be printing some pdf newapaper copies when the new revised TTT comes out.

Here are two of my favorite sayings: There are just two kinds of people:

One to whom Belief...is more precious than Truth,

And the other to whom Truth...is more precious than Belief.

(Author Unknown) And: "Condemnation without Investigation is Ignorance."

~~~ Nathan to Cherie:

Cherie Kropp wrote: "Condemnation without Investigation is Ignorance."

Yes, All of the friends, the workers, and every believer in Christ "MUST" search and investigate these things out for themselves, go beyond William Irvine's life and ministry prior to his birth back, go way back to the time of the apostles, and follow them through down the ages. Read what they teach, their belief, doctrines and how they hold on to their Faith in God's Truth even when they were tortured, and eventually deaths in every generation.

Please DON'T STOP! at William Irvine, John Long, John Govan, or Martin Luther one of the starters of Reformation in 16th century... go back further than that...

There are vast interesting early Church history books available and sold at many bookstores, and on the Internet these days... in Eternity! you and I are held accountable for our understanding of Truth in Jesus. People can't say so and so has deceived me... it will be TOOOOOO late to point finger at so and so "AFTER" death and in the day of judgement. Now, and today is the time to investigate, search these things out for yourself, after death is too late.

It's a very rewarding experience to investigate, search these things out! for yourself it will strengthen your courage, faith in God. It has given me more confidence in God's words, promise that Jesus IS the Truth and the Way to Salvation which lead to God's the Father. A lost eternity is a Long time to spend without hope, no way of getting out of that dark, lonely place without anyone one to chat with forever. Don't let anyone deceive you or persuade you in making the wrong choice. The choice is your to decide.

Paul the apostle warned in (II Timothy 4:1-4) The Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom... For the time will come when they will NOT endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears... And they shall turn away! their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Peter also wrote in (II Peter 2:1,2) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers! among you, who secretly shall bring damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY! shall follow their shameful ways, by reason of whom the WAY of truth shall be EVIL spoken of.

Jesus prophesied of things will happened before his 2nd coming in (Matthew 24:9-14) ... Ye shall be hated of ALL NATIONS! for my name's sake. And then shall MANY be offended, and shall BETRAY! one another, and shall Hate one another. And MANY! false prophets shall RISE, and shall Deceived MANY! And because iniquity shall abound, the LOVE of MANY! shall wax cold. But he that endures unto the end shall be SAVED.

As Cherie wrote: "Condemnation without Investigation is Ignorance." May the Lord be with us in our own research and Investigation of Jesus as the Truth and Way to Salvation.

My Dear Friends,

I see people are discussing the Ex-2x2 "Message boards" on the Internet ... I have to thank them for helping me see the Truth! Jesus. Not a group of people, and certainly not an ugly spirit. For those who don't "know me," my name is Rachel, I am 40 years old. I have a 4 year old daughter, whom I am raising "alone", as my husband left us in a very ugly situation when she was an infant. We went to gospel mtgs together for more than a year, I professed... within a year he said, "I'm going to control my life myself... God gave it to me, it's mine, and that's it." Some time, and many terrible experiences later, he wrote and told me that his biggest mistake was in rejecting God. Sorry to say, he still isn't willing to change that. I pray for him, and for others in the same situation. Worse to know the dealings of the Spirit! and reject God than to have never known.

I do appreciate the spirit of love here, and the bread so often shared on Standing True list. Unfortunately I don't share so very often, but natural life is hectic between sickness and being a single parent. Fortunately in spite of physical limitations and weaknesses, the precious life planted in our hearts with that gospel seed can fluorish unhindered.

My Testimony

Basically, I professed to serve God when I was 9 years old, with a child's understanding, and a child's desire "not to go to hell". When I was 17, and I understood that serving God meant denying my self, not some outward thing ... I chose to please my self. Nearly 20 years later, after many experiences ranging from merely disappointing to nearly life-ending, I became so desperate for God to control my life (as I had done such a lousy job of it), that I began seeking Him in prayer. I went to many churches, seeking something I could take with me when I left... and though I went for several years to a church where the "Praise and Worship" part of the service seemed so "uplifting", I was so empty when I left. Nothing to take with me. No fellowship with His Spirit in others. Over the years, I had dismissed the thought that the way I was raised had anything to do with serving God. How could it, when the people I knew all had such terrible faults?

Somehow I got "hooked up" with some "bitter ex's" on the Internet who all eagerly wanted to "prove" exactly why my feelings were correct. I'm probably one of the only (if not The only) person to be convinced otherwise with their assistance. As I continued praying, I came to understand that the spirit these people were manifesting, in all their bitterness was not the spirit of Christ. I finally prayed to God and asked Him to show me where He wanted Me to have fellowship with His children, even if it meant "Those people, and you know I don't like those people, but I'm so desperate I'm willing for anything."

Amazing... I went to meetings, and ALL those people had changed! : ) The gospel the workers preached was different than I remembered them preaching before : ) I professed a little more than 5 years ago with a new understanding. Salvation depends on one's Individual relationship with God! The Truth is Jesus, not a group of people! We walk together, and enjoy fellowship together, as we live in Christ. As long as we keep our eyes on Him, we see the Truth and the Way. Jesus is not a religion. Going to mtg is not a religion. It's not even where we go to worship God, although we certainly do that there as well. We worship God in Spirit and in Truth, as Jesus told the woman at the well. The Spirit of God that dwells in us has fellowship with His Spirit in others... and it's His Spirit in us that cries out to Him and has fellowship with Him.

This understanding gave me a whole new purpose. Live the dying life that Jesus lived, putting myself to death with God's help, so that His Spirit can live and grow in me. I want to live so that when God looks down on my life, and that when others look at my life, they can see that the most precious thing to me is the gift of the Holy Spirit, the eternal life He has given through His Son. I have never been to a mtg and not been fed, and were that to happen would it be because I failed to bring His Spirit to that mtg, not because of anyone else! And you know what? All those people I found such fault with... I dearly love each and every one of them! I love the Spirit of God in them, and understand that none of us will be perfected until we leave the confinement of this body.

We all need to pray for one another, and I pray especially for those who have lost their vision of Truth. The most important thing to see is that Jesus is the Truth. Of course sad to say there have been problems with some workers and friends, but mostly it's the perception/attitude of the person looking at the situation that makes the size of the problem (speaking from my own experiences). We aren't responsible for what other people say/do, but we Are responsible for our reaction/answer/attitude. I know, because all the years I went to mtg as a youngster I never saw this. When I did come to understand it, I couldn't understand why I'd never seen it before!

If we keep our eyes on Jesus, the attitudes of others around us won't have an effect. It's really sad how many people have allowed the bitterness of others to confuse them. Perhaps they aren't concerning themselves enough with their own individual relationship with God, through Christ, which IS salvation. If we have a living relationship with Him, whatever happens on earth with ANYONE won't phase us, because our fellowship with Him is everything that means anything. I just want to live closer to Him, and keep my eyes on Jesus, so that no matter what happens around and about I too can say, "none of these things move.

Welcome to all the new folks in the Standing True group, and thanks everyone for all you share!!!

Love to all.

Rachel

~~~~ A web-site from a 2x2 about the Veteran of Truth (ex-members).

http://home.iprimus.com.au/pruephillip/

~~~~ Paper on a Veterean of Truth (VOT) former- 2x2s members web-site.

(This artilce written by an ex-worker and a worker in USA)

I (EB) have decided to go to the VOT website and list what they say about the "two-by-two's". I have done this with a purpose of seeing how much of what they say is true and how much of it is "bad." The conclusions I have made are strictly my opinion and based on my experience and knowledge. Following each numbered statement, I will note if it is true or not true. If it is true, I will comment as to whether or not it is bad. Those that are not a simple true or false I will provide a comment.

Again my comment will be based solely on my opinion and experience. Due to the large size of the web page I decided to only look at the "overview" section that is provided. In that overview section I came up with 47 separate arguments made by VOT writer(s). The division I made of 47 is by no means the only way to separate the claims, as many items could have been separated further. I chose to separate them in the way best for me to analyze the assertions. My first comment is that the writing is rather schizophrenic. It is neither informational writing, nor is it a critique or analysis. While it contains elements of these three methods, it adheres to no single purpose and even has parts of reflective writing. This fact renders the writing to be rather difficult to analyze.

Another factor was definitions of words. While the writer(s) chose certain words that I feel to be not the most accurate, I will not argue definitions in this paper. Rather, I will star (*) a word if the definition is less than appropriate. I found a few grammatical and spelling errors in the site and chose to leave most as written. I use the words "true and good" and

"true and not bad" as being different. Good would be speaking of "good" as in Christ like.

1. (VOT ex-2x2 website) Wrote: The people, known within the group as "friends."

~~~True and not bad

2. Believe that they alone, are in God's true and ONLY church.

~~~ This thought has been taken in the past, though not as widespread today. Most find that this fellowship is where the Sprit has led them and has few if any rivals as to some of the forms that Jesus lived and taught.

3. In reality this no-name church was founded* in Ireland in the late 1890's by a man named William Irvine.

~~~ Not "founded" but participated in by Irvine AND others. I have found little if any reference to Irvine as a founder in writings by fellowship members. All the references to Irvine as founder are by people outside the fellowship. Cornelius Jaenen's extensive research and unpublished manuscript names many others along with Irvine who played an active role in the coalescence of the fellowship.

The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowhsip book (written by Cornelius J. Jaenen, a 2x2 Christian) A documentary history of the early church and restorationist movement.

~~~~ Cornelius J. Jaenen: Ph. D., L.L.D., FRSC, Professor Emeritus of History at the University of Ottawa, is presently Honorary Secretary of the Royal Society of Canada and member of the executive committee of the Research Centre for the Religious History of Canada, Saint Paul University. He was the founding president of the Canadian Ethnic Studies Association (1971-73).

President of the French Colonial Historical Society (1986-88), and president of the Canadian Historical Association (1988-89). His publications cover an impressive range of historical issues and he is in great demand as a lecturer on the national and international circuit.

This tripartitle documentary collection introduces the salietn characteristics of the structure, beliefs, practices, and challenges of the first century Christian church. It proceeds to illustrate the subsequent developments of these characteristics over the next "TEN" centuries as Christianity acquired power and prestige.

These developments can be interpreted eitehr as an unrestrained institutional evolution or as a "Departure" from the Apostolic model based in good measure on "Invented" tradition. A final section documents attempts within the mainstream and also in heretical movements, from at leat the fourth century to the present, to retain, reconstitute, or "Restore" the original! Christian model. It is an invitation "to embark on an intellectual journey through a couple millenia of Christian history with an open mind and free spirit, unencumbered by any creedal or confessional predilection."

http://www.legaspublishing.com

LEGAS

P.O. box 040328

Brooklyn, New York

USA 11204

3 Wood Aster Bay

Ottawa, Ontario

K2R 1B3

~~~ This book approximately 35.00 US dollars. This book is worth every penny of it. :)

4. William Irvine, was joined by Edward Cooney, who was later expelled

~~~ True and this could have been bad or good or neither.

5. Eddie Cooney's (ex-2x2 worker) small group of followers (Cooneyites) still survive today.

~~~ True. But Eddie's followers are getting fewer and fewers each day.

6. At the start Irvine's followers were required to renounce all and become "workers."

~~~ True and perhaps bad, yet it was corrected shortly.

7. Eventually his own workers excommunicated him

~~~ True. The workers excommunicated William Irvine for teaching false doctrines, misbehavior sexual relationships with his followers.

8. and since that time they no longer acknowledge him as their founder.

~~~ See # 3, although many acknowledge Irvine's role, there are some that were less free about sharing the facts surrounding William Irvine's role.

9. Irvine's movement spread rapidly at first and continues today.

~~~ True. Irvine's or the 2x2s Itinerant preachrs spread rapidly world wide.

10. It is in most countries.

~~~True. Yes, the 2x2s fellowship and Itinerant ministry exist in many countries.

11. and although no records are kept;

~~~ Not true.

12. No doctrine is published.

~~~ Not exactly true, as while no creed or tenets are established the teachings of Christ are taught and published bibles are used.

13. And publicity is shunned.

~~~ Not true, many functions, invitations, lives are public. Media coverage while not sought, neither is it shunned. Many meetings are announced publicly in newspapers, with posters, and by announcements distributed door-to-door. Personally I live under far stricter requirements at my job than as a "friend" when it comes to my contact with the media in the respective roles.

14. Take pride* in the "true ministry."

~~~ True and not bad.

15. The workers (preacher/evangelists) leave their paid careers,

~~~ True and good as it was the teaching of Christ, and the practice of early apostles.

16. Give up all possessions,

~~~ Same as #16.

17. Remain unmarried,

~~~ While the large majority are unmarried there are and have been married "workers". Remaining single was an attribute that was seen beneficial by early apostles and disciples and by Christ himself.

18. And take no salary.

~~~ Same as #17.

19. (However, money is slipped to them quietly by the saints to assure they are well* provided for).

~~~ True. Well-provided for is a questionable adjective. While some workers have ample funds others do not, and I daresay all have experienced scarcity from time to time.

20. Tax receipts are not issued for these offerings.

~~~ True and not bad.

21. Head workers in each area send out workers in pairs.

~~~ True, pairs is good as that's how Christ sent them in Matthew 10 and Luke 10.

22. These "ministers of the gospel" live with the friends.

~~~ Partially true, though live could rarely be defined as a permanent situation and many workers spend time in accommodations other than with the friends. Moving to a different friends' house every few nights.

23. The workers eat the friends' foods.

~~~ True and good, Jesus and the early apostles did the same. Christ instructed as much.

24. And drive the friends' cars.

~~~ True and good, Jesus and early disciples used other's means of transportation.

25. Within society the friends usually keep a low profile.

~~~ Partially true, as members practice the "be-attitudes" as taught by Christ. Members are active in their local communities. Some have run for public office, many serve their community in public positions. Many belong to clubs, associations, groups and other positions.

26. Women are expected to conform to a strict standard of dress.

~~~ This is true in and has been true in certain areas. The issue is centered around the definition of modesty. And the need of some to assist others in maintaining that modesty.

27. The "sister workers" set the standards for the women's appearance.

~~~ While sister workers are usually the most modest in their dress. I know of none that try to dress like a sister worker, I have found most women to dress as convicted of God.

28. Gospel meetings are held, usually in a rented facility,

~~~ True and not bad, though the evangelistic practices vary widely from place to place, depending on the character of the community.

29. Gospel meetings are to recruit new members.

~~~ The main purpose of the Gospel meetings is to share the Gospel of Christ to all.

30 . The Sunday morning meetings and weekly Bible study meetings.

~~~ Partially true yet not the whole truth. In most areas, newcomers are welcomed to all the meetings of the fellowship.

31. and are held in members' homes.

~~~ True and not bad, in fact this is how Christ and the early disciples practiced.

32. Christian literature is to be avoided.

~~~ Not entirely true. While the teachings of Christ or ample, many other reading is performed. This is done on a individual level. I have seen every type of literature, from a wide range of Bible helps and commentaries to the Left Behind series on members' shelves, with no hint of disapproval.

33. The Workers use allegories throughout their talks.

~~~ True and good, Christ preached allegories during His ministry.

34. To prove their "way" is right.

~~~ Not true. All types of speakers, Christ being the chief example, rely on the use of allegory to illustrate their points, not to prove rightness.

35. Most do not consider themselves saved.

~~~ Not true in my experience. Messages in conventions and workers meetings have often focused on the need of giving a clear testimony of our salvation.

36. And feel they must remain in the 2x2 system until they die to have even a chance of salvation.

~~~ Not true in my experience. Their hope of salvation is in Christ, they choose to have fellowship with others of like belief.

37. Some who leave "The Truth", as they call it, without learning that the group has a false doctrine and has hidden it's origin, continue to live in fear and feel they are doomed for a lost eternity.

~~~ The few that I know that have left express otherwise.

38. The Two-By-Twos deny Jesus Christ.

~~~ Not true at ALL.

39. This would be a shock to them since they feel Jesus is the head of their fellowship.

~~~ Shock?no, Christ the head. True, Christ is the focus of the fellowship.

40. They do not acknowledge that Jesus, Himself, is the Almighty God.

~~~ Not true. This gets into questions of the "trinity" and often semantics is the key role in misunderstandings on this subject.

41. They worship "another Jesus."

~~~ With this "other Jesus" being undefined and this entire statement being unsupported it is impossible to answer without being able to read the mind of the writer.

42. Their ministers (workers) claim they have worldwide unity.

~~~ Not entirely true, while there is unity in the spirit, differences on some issue are widely acknowledged, discussed, and addressed.

43. However, they only have unity in the belief that the only true way to Heaven is through Their homeless ministry, and the church in the home--their "way."

~~~ Not true, there is unity in many areas. Yet many believe that Christ within is the "true way."

44. This no-name church subtly propagates control, fear, guilt and anxiety within its members

~~~ Not true in my experience. Some members though have issues of control, yet people have been able to see beyond people and to God in these occasions.

45. However, because of the way they are organized, and because of their beliefs, the people are sheltered and they do not understand that they are in a spiritually abusive and emotionally abusive organization.

~~~ Obviously an opinion of the writer.

46. There are a growing number of Ex-Two-By-Two members who are now informing others about this group

~~~ True, through the Internet, web-sites and 9 anti-2x2s books.

47. As of 1996 eight books have been published to document the beliefs, explain the history, and reveal the inner workings of the 2x2s.

~~~ True there have been at least 8 books written, whether the stated intent is in fact the actual intent is open for debate.

To contact the author or to make constructive comments please email to

ABarkerN@aol.com. Be sure to include your name and address (email or otherwise), as I would like to respond to all comments.

5/1/2007

Dear forum participants on the Truth (ex-2x2 and 2x2s) Message board.

It has been some time in coming, but I have made the choice to "leave" this message board. I take from this experience a number of lessons.

1. Whatever motive the great "majority" of ex-2x2s it is NOT the Spirit of Jesus, nor the Spirit of Truth that can discuss matters without becoming abusive.

2. conscience is not quicken among many ex-2x2s. I know what has been said on this forum even by Brad Lewis (ex-2x2 worker) Wimple (ex-2x2) and James Durston (ex-2x2) have caused me to pray consider my position. They say the workers are the servants of the devils and the friends are the children of the devil. The fellowship of the friends and workers are a Cult.

3. There is no honour here on the Truth message board. Being upright, and observing a certain standard of respect for other people is largely absent, as I have learned from being consistently slandered by those who posts as "Anonymous" guests. In my time I have seen gutter reached by people who profess to know God.

I have had my anonymity under my feet, had people "research" my background on the Internet, have had the experience of having my sexual questioned and being constant told I am "NOT" a Christian.

I know I need to get away from this situation, especially given that I suffer from clinical depression which has taken a turn for the worse in recent weeks. This forum actually make me comptemplate "Death" it seems to such all the JOY out of life, God and creation.

4. Most ex-2x2s people on this message board are far more concerned with abusing other people than they are in detailed analysis and discussion. I have only had a handful of real good discussions in four months. I've been posting here, which is actually quite SAD. The desire to interact, to dialogue, to communicate is totally absent. It is largely ruined by "anonymous" guests posters. The lack of accountability which is recognizable alias affords only exacertates to low tone on this forum.

There is Very "Small" minority of Ex-2x2s who deserve a lot of kudos for their kindness admist the ugliness of those who would make claim to Christ. A great number of ex-2x2s, however represent the very Worst expression of hatred, intolerance, bigotry, and Evil that I have come across.

I have always sought to adhere to the highest standard of writing, not becoming abusive, or using hominem attack (eg. "You're just a waste of Oxygen so and so..). I hope I have made my judgement fairly. I have been willing to apologize to any errors; I have made publicly retracted writings. I grew ashamed of or had made errors in. I have tried to be Kind and encouraging to all those who contacted me Via private message.

~~~ I thank ALL those who have been encouraging to me kinds regards and peace to all. (Posted by a 2x2 friend) on his exit of the Truth message board.